By the power of ..., um, <insert deity here>

[Mathias]

The Bluecloak stories have progressed a little and with the introduction of some clerics, it would be wise to determine the pantheon of this campaign. I'm going to place more emphasis on the comments and suggestions of my co-writers at this time HK, Wolflord and Godgrave, but I would greatly appreciate everyone putting their two cents in (Hey Sledgstone, by the way that would be great new smiley!).

Here are a couple of my initial reactions:

1. No deity interaction in the campaign world.

Ring...ring.

"Hello?" Thor answers the door.

"Um, can you autograph my hammer?"

"By Ra, another one?" Thor looks around the petitioner. "Damn it! How many of you are there?"

The Forgotten Realms campaign setting had deities coming down and screwing around with even the common people at times. False gods and cults don't necessarily fall into this category. As an example, Orpheus built his army under the premise that he was their god, but he wasn't one.

No, I'd rather keep the deities as a spiritual concept like in the Eberron campaign setting where people have faith that the deities are there. Clerical powers are believed to be derived from them, but they very well could be from oneself. You just don't know, but you believe, that's faith.

2. Multiple pantheons are allowed, but let's keep it simple.

"So Ra, how did the negotiations with Zeus go?" Thor asked.

"Not so bad, Hades was a bit pissed that he had to share the underworld with Anubis. Once we divided the area with the River Styx, everyone settled down."

The Eberron campaign setting introduced a Greek-like pantheon called the Sovereign Host where the really bad guys were expelled from the group and call the Dark Six. Interesting, but then they also added the Silver Flame which represented Christianity in that there was only one God, but it had a twist in that Silver Flame was a mixture of a Coutl, a paladin, and a Pit Fiend. Basically heaven and hell all wrapped into one, allowing for some really good and bad things to be done in the name of their god.

Of course, we could go with a single deity that represents good, bad, and everything in between, so all are believers of the same God, just interpreted differently. AKA The Crusades.

3. So what does everyone else think? Should we use an existing pantheon, say in the real world, one of the campaign worlds mentioned, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, D&D's default Greyhawk pantheon, or something made up?

[Wolflord]

I like the Eberron campaign idea, where nobody really ever sees/talks to their God, so their spiritual faith could come from anywhere. That could open up some interesting possibilities.

I also think it would be really cool if every religion worshipped a different God under the same name. That name wouldn't necessarily have to be God, but I think that it could open up some cool campaign ideas (Holy War?) that are fueled by this difference of beliefs.

[Mathias]

A single deity sounds good, with each religion attributing their own expectations of who and what the deity represents. Peace loving, war-like, sadistic, vengeful, humbled, prideful, etc. Each religion is a chosen mixture that they believe is the true deity, or path to salvation or damnation. This can easily lead to holy wars just like in our own world.

[Wolflord]

I was thinking that possibly there could be a single book (not unlike the Bible) from which all religions are based off of, and each religion interperts or translates the book differently.

[Mathias]

That sounds cool. Any other ideas?

Does anyone want a second religion introduced like the Greek or Egyption Mythology?

[HKofsesshoumaru]

I like option 2..sounds wicked cool. I kind of like the theme of dark riders. Example: The horse and carriage in Dracula (the one with Anthony Hopkins) and the ringwraiths (sorry if I mis spelled that) in Lord of The Rings. They could be anything you wan't, their true figures hidden under dark cloaks..leaving us to guess what they really are. We would square off with the "messengers" before we met the HUGE boss. One even bigger than the one you have now. Maybe, Adamar (or someone else in the party, I'm not the star of the show here..) could attempt to take one on, and that could be the turning point when he falls into the river if you wanted to keep that idea going..*shrugs* I dunno. Or you could put it somewhere else IF you choose to use the idea. I am not trying to get all pushy..LOL. But I am totally open to what ever.

[Wolflord]

If we do decide to make the gods/godesses appear to the characters, then I think it would be cool that they appeared as whatever the person who they were communing with thinks they should look like. It'd be cool, because if you have multiple people in one group then the god would appear as a different thing to each one. The only issue with that is how do we know what each person thinks the God should look like? :X

[Mathias]

Sounds like Wolflord might have have been a Babylon 5 fan. Can we say Vorlons? ;) The Vorlons weren't gods no matter how much they wanted to give everyone else the impression that they were. They were just a highly advanced technological (perhaps even magical) race and culture.

I would still prefer that the deities don't interact with the world directly. Emissaries with a similar Vorlon ability noted above who CLAIM to come on a deities behalf may hold some credence, but the deities themselves do not interfere directly. You can use the Ancients from Stargate SG-1 as an example of the policy, though hopefully better applied here. :)

I like the idea of Harry Potter's magic mirror, where the viewer sees what they want to see and not necessarily what actually is. I think this symbolizes Wolflord's idea almost as much of the Vorlons, if not just a more recent illustration for you youngsters. Any images of their deity that they see via any spells, artifacts, or emissaries are just reflections of what they want to see.

I have always pondered the possibility that every religion on Earth is actually derived from the same God. They just interpret Him, or aspects of Him in their own way. I would think that even Atheists believe in the power of themselves. I was taught that God doesn't live in church, He lives inside of each and everyone of us. God is life, life is God, wasn't there an anime on this?

In any case, there are plenty of ways to take the deity structure of this campaign and would love to hear more opinions on this.

[Wolflord]

Sounds like Wolflord might have have been a Babylon 5 fan. Can we say Vorlons? ;) The Vorlons weren't gods no matter how much they wanted to give everyone else the impression that they were. They were just a highly advanced technological (perhaps even magical) race and culture.

I like the idea of Harry Potter's magic mirror, where the viewer sees what they want to see and not necessarily what actually is. I think this symbolizes Wolflord's idea almost as much of the Vorlons, if not just a more recent illustration for you youngsters. Any images of their deity that they see via any spells, artifacts, or emissaries are just reflections of what they want to see.

I have always pondered the possibility that every religion on Earth is actually derived from the same God. They just interpret Him, or aspects of Him in their own way. I would think that even Atheists believe in the power of themselves. I was taught that God doesn't live in church, He lives inside of each and everyone of us. God is life, life is God, wasn't there an anime on this?

Never saw Babylon 5 actually ;)
Yeah I was thinking sorta the Harry Potter idea.. The Gods appear as whatever the person looking feels in their hearts they should look like.

I always thought that organized religion isn't what God and faith is all about. When I talk about having faith, my faith is always in myself or those around me. However that's kind of off topic so...

I was thinking that for each country you give them a primary religion, and then a few secondary ones scattered among the areas... It'd be cool because in one country Christianity might be the major religion, but with a buddhist temple somewhere. However in another country Buddhism would be primary, with a couple of churches for Christians spread around. Obviously there would be other religions, and ones that are "indigenous" (for lack of a better word) to certain countries.

[Mathias]

Sounds doable. Any other ideas?

[Wolflord]

Giant lobsters.

[Mathias]

Mmm, with butter. :drool:

[Kelene]

What! :confused:

How does a Giant Lobster fit in as a god???

Anyhow... I like the idea of the religions having a main area with smaller religions mixed in.

Also I like the idea from Raymond Feist who have the gods give people a part of themselves, and this is how the clerics get their magical powers and even some regular people get powers such as feeling good energies vs. bad energies. I don't know if I can explain it but Feist explains this in 'Flight of the Night Hawks'. I love his books and his idea of the gods, and how he sometimes changes they way the gods work as the characters discover new things about the gods.

If anyone just understood anything I said then congrats. I don't even know if all of that made sense. >_<

[Wolflord]

You clearly haven't been here very long. If you did, you'd know that the giant lobsters meant absolutely nothing. We joke around a lot :D

That's an interesting idea too.

[Mathias]

Joking? O.o

You weren't talking about an advanced Chuul?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuul
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/chuul.htm

Haha. I think a few subpar religions would add a nice touch. Everyone will be like, pahshaw, like they have any real power. Of course, that's when they discover that they are worshiping a smaller aspect of a greater god than the other guys. Bwahaha.

[Wolflord]

haha we should have like... Suicide cults and stuff :D

[Mathias]

Mwahaha. You won't kill me this day. I'll do it myself. Blech. :)

[Wolflord]

Don't drink the Kool-Aid first!

You know what I always wondered.... Does Kool-Aid actually make you cooler? I mean... It's an Aid for being Cool right? So shouldn't it make you cooler?

[Mathias]

You'd think, but it actually makes me hyper causing me to get excessively hot. Oh well.

[dudeman]

Excuse me for resurrecting this thread like this, (especially if you guys have already figured this all out and this is no longer relevant) but I am a huge fan of mythology/religion/philosophy etc. and a bit of an online RPG fan as well, so I really can't help but share my ideas here.

Does anyone want a second religion introduced like the Greek or Egyption Mythology? In my personal opinion I think you should have several different religious philosophies that can all be categorized into several smaller groups depending upon how similar they are to each other (eg: How Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all grouped together under the term "Abrahamic religions", or how Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism are all grouped together under the term "Dharmic religions"). So, we could have a group of religions that all happen to believe in the same God or Gods, but disagree on certain things like who his prophets/oracles are, or what the nature of this deity is. Then we could have another group of religions that believed in a different God or group of Gods that had similar disagreements with each other over the nature of this/these deity/deities. Furthermore we could have different rituals or froms of worship unique to each religion (eg: one religion might haver prayer, one might commit animal sacrifice, another might have something like meditation).

[Mathias]

Wow, someone who actually knows what there talking about is chatting with us? :wtf:

Great comments! I never knew the "categories" of religions, so unless you're making it up, you've got to be the resident expert here.

We did discuss similar ideas about having the same religion with variations in differing regions. You have some good points in your post that I think we can incorporate into the campaign.

We would greatly appreciate any further incites into this discussion, since no decisions or even an outline has been presented yet by anyone. Including myself sadly. ^_^:

I think the consensus to date is the following.

1. 2 or 3 main religions.
2. Several or more religions are subsets of each main religion.
3. Religions are wide-spread and most can coexist with each other.

Anyone can expand this list with their own suggestions.

[dudeman]

Great comments! I never knew the "categories" of religions, so unless you're making it up, you've got to be the resident expert here. No, most scholars use the terms Abrahamic and Dharmic to refer to the two largest religious categories (and thank you for the praise, but I'm willing to bet there are other members here who probably know more then I do).

1. 2 or 3 main religions.
2. Several or more religions are subsets of each main religion.
3. Religions are wide-spread and most can coexist with each other.I'd say that'd work pretty well. I wonder though, should we use real religions, or come up with our own?

[Wolflord]

The only issue with using religions found on our Earth is that religious groups often (especially in fantasy RPG's) engage in questionable acts, and if we use real religions, some of our members might become offended which is unfortunate but something we have to consider.

[Mathias]

Agreed Wolflord. The religions will mimic in structure and perhaps some substance, but no direct links. As an example, in the game Dragon Quest 8 the religion was based upon the Goddess, very similar to the God of Christianity except in gender. The devil was also represented, but he reigned over a colorless mockery of the real world.

In any case, we can work with anything. I like the idea of possibly having the main religions mimic Monotheism (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) and Polytheism (Greek, Hinduism, and Egyptian) in some form, subset, or combination of. Unless there are any other suggestions, lets try to narrow down this list with the interesting qualities of each.

1. Base religions

1.a. Monotheism

1.a.i. I like the idea of the Holy Trinity. The idea of God being represented in three distinct concepts and actual forms while still apart of the same being is intriguing, whether you believe it or not, which I personally do.

1.a.ii. Historical records demonstrate that God actually spoke and interacted with humanity, but he doesn't today. God made this choice, because he wanted people to choose freely their own actions and stop relying upon him to discipline them. Kind of like how a parent has to let his children go once they are old enough to live on their own. I like this idea as part of the religion we'll create. The priests teach that God's flock has flourished into adulthood, left the cradle so to speak to spread the faith. Of course, legends will say that there truly is a cradle where you can speak with God, and others that are determined to discover the true reason why God no longer speaks with his people.

1.b. Polytheism

1.b.i. Multiple deities, each relating to one or more aspects of life such as emotion, morality, and nature. One deity could represent Anger/Murder/Fire or Fickle/Wanderlust/Fire, while another could be Calm/Peaceful/Water or Calm/Self-centered/Death. Others would include combinations of each, though I wouldn't want the list of main deities to go beyond perhaps twenty leaving the possibility of many subdeities that express more specifically one of the themes.

1.b.ii. Including a nature theme in the deities would easily allow druid characters to have a place in the campaign while keeping them varied in personality and duties. One druid could worship a deity of fire and another water. Both are polar opposites that may get in each others way, but as long as there is a balance between them, nature's interests are served.

2. Several or more religions are subsets of each main religion.

3. Religions are wide-spread and most can coexist with each other.

Please continue to fill out this list with your own ideas and see if you can trim the fat out of my outline. :)